Jumps

James Bond Joined : 13 Jun 2006 Posts : 1121

Hi Titi!
I'd say that completely depends on the skater. They are getting younger and younger these days... But I don't think that landing the triple axel at age 11 is the norm yet. Smile

Rach, what age did you begin learning triples?
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I have new questions for our serious amateur and professional skaters concerning the skate tracings for take offs and landings. How much can one really "read" from those markings on the ice? I've watched numerous skaters at local rinks in my area do their jumps and, then after they finish a particular jump, go back and look at the tracings on the ice. What exactly are they looking for? Are there telltale signs which indicate when something was done wrong or right, as to techniques used? How specific is that information? I'm assuming that it would be possible for the skater to ascertain the position of the take-off blade by the carvings it leaves behind. Does that mark also indicate how much force the skater used to launch himself into the air from either a toe jump or an edge jump? What other peices of information do those tracing give?

On a related issue...would it be possible to determine if a skater is having serious medical problems from the appearances of the ice tracings? I realize this is an off-the-wall question, LOL, but I'm working on a fictional project and trying to figure out what would be believable to readers (particularly serious skating fans, lol) and what wouldn't. If a skater were trying to mask a serious illness would his ice tracings show that he was covering up his real situation?

Mary C.

James Bond Joined : 13 Jun 2006 Posts : 1121

Mary, a skater can tell a number of things from the tracings/marks left on the ice.

One can see which edge the skater took off of from the take-off markings, such as in the flip and lutz jumps when it's critical not to "flutz" or "lip."
The skater can also see how the toe pick mark is in relation to the edge mark of a take-off of the toe jumps. In lutzes and flips, one does not want to see the toe mark too wide and inside of the edge mark, because that would mean that you are "picking" too wide and creating a poor take-off.

In the axel jump, some skaters "skid" the take-off, leaving a wide, snowy mark on the ice, while others jump from a clean edge. A skater being taught with a technique in which the clean edge is desired can look back at her marks and know that she is doing something wrong if she sees a skid, or any odd variation thereof.
One time while I was attending a skating clinic, the instructor gave an entire talk on the marks of an axel. She gave points as to what was causing the incorrect take-off marks, and how to fix the problems.

A skater can also tell, by the tracing left from a landing, if their landing was clean or if the jump was cheated.

In salchows and loops, a skater can tell if they are taking off incorrectly if their mark looks like a very large "V" (indicating an elongated forward edge) at the point of take-off.

As far as your second question, concerning a serious illness, I will have to think about that one a bit, since I've never entertained the idea... I'll let you know if I come up with something!
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Thank you for your interesting answers, Heidi! I find this very very interesting!
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Titi

"Focus, concentration and Joubert-spirit is needed."

Brian Joubert - champion du monde 2007

Thanks a bunch for your answers, Heidi! hugs

Now....Am I correct in assuming that deciphering edge tracings is based on, in part, the appearances of a pattern of ice shavings which are thrown out when the blade impacts the ice? For instance, theoretically one could discern a tracing by the left edge from one of the right edge by noticing from which side the ice shavings spray out. Am I going the right direction with my thinking here?LOL Or am I out in left field? LOL

Is there ever any individuality to a particular skater's tracings? For instance, could a skater produce a characteristic tracing that another skater would not? I guess what I'm asking--do all tracings, no matter who does them, appear the same when they are examined? Also, would it be beliveable (to someone knowledgeable about skating techinique) that any skater could have a characteristic pattern of tracings specific only to that skater?

Regarding my question as to determining a skater's medical status via the appearance of his/her ice tracings, I'm trying to determine a credible explanation for something which I would like to take place in one of the novels-to-be. My problem is--it has to be based on something factual, LOL. I can't just pull an explanation out of this air, LOL. Heidi, perhaps one of your students or other skaters who practices at your rink has noticed a significant difference in their ice tracings when they've skated while not feeling well. Would your coaching colleagues have any input on this idea?

Also, what happens to the ice tracings when the skater's legs are wobbly? How does that affect the ice shavings, chips that the blade produces or, for that matter, is something of that nature even discernable in the tracings?

Mary C. ( trying not to appear completly loony with these questions hide8up

although I know it appears that way)

James Bond Joined : 13 Jun 2006 Posts : 1121

Hi, Mary! Sorry for the delayed response- I have actually managed to lose two lengthy posts so far... So, this time I think I'm going to try my reply in sections instead...

Deciphering the edge tracings is mostly due to the actual grooves that are made in the ice by the edges, and the patterns they make. Shavings are not usually very noticable unless a skid is involved or if the skater was very heavy on the toe-pick while travelling backwards. I checked out my ice shavings from edges the other day- you kind of need a magnifying glass for that, lol.
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James Bond Joined : 13 Jun 2006 Posts : 1121

There is room for some individuality in tracings and marks. However, it would be very difficult to imagine something that a skater would do that no skater has ever done before. A characteristic mark would most likely be due to a skater's known habit, good or bad. For example, we had a skater in a rink that I frequent who was known for two-footing and cheating her jumps. Because everyone who was familiar with her skating saw her perform jumps in that manner consistently, it became a known habit of that skater by others in the rink.
Other examples could include if a skater was known to skid the take-off of the axel, flutz the lutz, make huge holes in the ice from flips, etc.

Or, the cause of a unique pattern or tracing could be due to techniques. For example- A few years ago, I began practicing the lutz and the axel take-offs from an "S" curve. Since I was the only one in our rink doing it that way, it was kind of unique to me. However there are other skaters that do these jumps this way- Brian does a very small S curve into his lutz. It's just not as commonly seen as the usual ways, which would be a glide on a plain back outside edge going into the axel, or a long left outside edge going into the "lutz corner" to do the lutz.
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James Bond Joined : 13 Jun 2006 Posts : 1121

A skater with wobbly legs could potentially create wobbly tracings. If a skater was on a curve, outside or inside edge, if she was wobbling she could unintentionally create subcurves within the curve- little hills and valleys within the circle or half circle shaped edge mark.
I've seen this happen when a skater is nervous and trying to perform neat, clean edges. Especially when testing moves in the field, or dance, if the skater is very nervous and/or relatively inexperienced.

When trying to picture what the tracings on the ice would look like, you could imagine that a skater has a marker in a bright color (say, bright purple, lol) attatched to her blade, and that marker is marking the ice where the edges hit the ice as she skates.

lol, no need to feel loony! hugs

Your questions are very well thought out.
Talk to you later! waving20

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James Bond Joined : 13 Jun 2006 Posts : 1121

Rach, yes, but what I meant was that, in comparison with others in my rink, it was not so common. I meant it as a comparison. Smile

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